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12:10:55 <xreal> Hi.
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12:11:32 <xreal> hi artem
12:11:47 <artem> hey xreal
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12:20:58 <xreal> Hi all ;-)
12:21:24 <xreal> ping?
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12:22:44 <xreal> dkb: did you finish t
12:22:50 <xreal> dkb?
12:23:03 <xreal> damn irc app
12:23:45 * xreal is testing IRC on Windows Mobile.
12:26:25 <dkb> I updated that wiki page quite a bit.
12:26:49 <xreal> Could you give me the link please?
12:26:59 <dkb> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Minutely_Mapnik
12:27:08 <xreal> thx
12:27:57 <xreal> xreal: test
12:28:12 <xreal> Nice, Ballon tips ;-)
12:28:15 <dkb> I used long form of the arguments to osmosis and osm2pgsql to make it clearer, especially when osmosis has an -rri and an -rrii argument ;)
12:30:27 <xreal> ~ doesn't work in scripts. I am using /home/$USER/ ;-)
12:31:57 <xreal> nice HowTo. I'll add my update script soon.
12:32:02 <Ldp> you do *not* *ever* edit the state.txt!
12:32:07 <xreal> It writes logfiles for debugging.
12:32:48 <xreal> Ldp: You are right.
12:33:24 <Ldp> you go to the osm planet server, and find the state.txt with the right timestamp. It's a bit of work, but there's also a new service that can help
12:33:31 <xreal> I'm sad that there isn't a timestamp for replicates, like for normal change
12:33:59 <xreal> Ldp: What new service? ;-)
12:34:00 <Ldp> http://toolserver.org/~mazder/replicate-sequences/
12:34:11 <Ldp> see thread at http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2010-March/019106.html
12:34:21 <xreal> Ldp: Yeah, that's Peter's script.
12:35:16 <xreal> Thanks for the hint.
12:35:21 <dkb> that's listed there on the wiki
12:35:36 <dkb> isn't that what you modify with the state.txt?
12:36:05 <Ldp> dkb: right, found it. Please remove all references to directly editing the state.txt file. That will never work, as you don't know the correct combination of the sequence numbers in there
12:36:51 <dkb> Do you not modify the state.txt with the results you get from http://toolserver.org/~mazder/replicate-sequences/ ?
12:37:23 <Ldp> so you don't even need to run --rri to get a sample state.txt. Run --rrii, then download a state.txt through mazder's service, and place it in the workingDirectory
12:37:46 <Ldp> you say 'edit' and that's the confusing part. You don't edit, just replace the file with another.
12:38:58 <dkb> since I don't have a GUI on my server I used a desktop machine to use that web page and then "edited" the state.txt on the server.. that was where I was coming from.
12:39:43 <dkb> but yes, "replace" would be better
12:39:43 <Ldp> dkb: I understand, but am saying the wording would be confusing
12:39:55 <xreal> I think, we can use lynx or wget for this?
12:40:19 <Ldp> sure: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2010-March/019106.html
12:40:25 <Ldp> example: http://toolserver.org/~mazder/replicate-sequences/?2010-01-01T10:00:00Z
12:40:37 <xreal> nice!
12:40:50 <Ldp> so wget http://toolserver.org/~mazder/replicate-sequences/?2010-01-01T10:00:00Z -O state.txt
12:41:33 <xreal> $time - 3 hours
12:41:40 <Ldp> I usually start from 21:00 or 22:00 hours, so have an overlap of 2 or 3 hours before the timestamp of the snapshot I imported
12:45:26 <dkb> I changed edit->replace contents..
12:47:08 <xreal> dkb: I would do it with wget.
12:47:15 <xreal> That's really easy.
12:48:11 <dkb> To figure out the exact syntax to get the correct contents I think would be a little intimidating.
12:49:32 <xreal> You cant change the content at all.
12:49:47 <xreal> It's unique.
12:51:00 <dkb> That web page is returning what the contents of the state.txt file should be for your initial import.  After that you are correct and do not change it again manually.
12:51:32 <dkb> *initial import of changed data*
12:54:09 <xreal> Once I wrote a script to find the latest timestamp of each type in a osm-file.
12:54:24 <xreal> But it wasn't that fast...
12:55:06 <xreal> uh... accu is nearly empty
12:55:10 <xreal> brb soon
12:55:26 <xreal> accu = battery
12:58:34 <dkb> I think the next best thing would be a simple shell script to prompt for date/time you need and fetch the state.txt file for you.
12:58:47 <dkb> Or better yet include that functionality in osmosis
13:44:49 <xreal> hi again
13:46:13 <xreal> Why osmosis? osm2pgsql would be better.
13:47:31 <xreal> Can anyone read me?
13:47:36 <Ldp> no
13:49:50 <xreal> It would be fine to get osmosis to download hourly AND minutely data, when the update delay is morevthan one hour. Currently it only downloads minutely data, when using minutely mapnik.
13:50:10 <Ldp> there were no hourly replicate diffs before
13:50:39 <xreal> Can't we use normal hourly diffs for that?
13:51:22 <Ldp> they're not compatible
13:51:36 <xreal> I also need to figure out the difference between diffs and replicates...
13:51:56 <Ldp> Brett Henderson (osmosis author) had some ideas about a service where you specify the interval you want, and it would merge the right diffs and feed that back to you
13:52:42 <xreal> Sounds nice.
13:52:59 <Ldp> so you'd download a single file, instead of dozens of small ones
13:53:24 <Ldp> I don't think he got anywhere with that yet. It was mentioned on the mailing list (dev or talk) a while back
13:53:56 <Ldp> especially if it would do --simc on the server, would save some download time
13:55:12 <xreal> The files are pretty small... I've got 5 TB traffic on my vserver.
13:55:38 <xreal> Perhaps I could offer sthg. like a mirror.
13:57:54 <xreal> Hourly replicates would be really nice in my opinion.
13:59:46 <xreal> Oh, there are  hour-replicate!
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16:45:02 <dkb> Ldp: I believe I addressed your issue more fully now: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Minutely_Mapnik
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19:38:27 <c_lopez> good afternoon Mr. Pavlenko, how are you?
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21:07:59 <artem> hey springmeyer
21:08:18 <springmeyer> :) hey there artem
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21:09:30 <artem> have we just missed c_lopez ? do you know his timezone ?
21:09:48 <springmeyer> he is -7 I think
21:10:00 <springmeyer> I am -8, so 14:00 now
21:10:07 <springmeyer> maybe just out of a walk :)
21:10:17 <artem> :)
21:10:27 <springmeyer> artem: he seems to be a great student huh?
21:10:48 <artem> i think so
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21:10:55 <springmeyer> obviously no coding yet, but certainly for someone new to mapping gaining momentum very quickly
21:11:08 <springmeyer> ha! nice ^^
21:11:13 <springmeyer> hey there c_lopez
21:11:18 <artem> hey c_lopez
21:11:26 <c_lopez> hi how are you?
21:11:55 <artem> very good, thanks.
21:12:37 <artem> c_lopez: we can chat about gsoc ideas?
21:12:49 * springmeyer is just wrapping up registration to SOTM... getting excited
21:12:51 <c_lopez> yes, great!
21:13:35 <c_lopez> what do you think about the options for the project?
21:14:37 <c_lopez> there are 3 important things I think: svg_renderer, resolution for printing and adornments, such as coordinates, grids, etc.
21:17:03 <c_lopez> about the adornments, the idea is to create classes for representing each of them, so they can be shared among different renderers
21:18:03 * artem reading c_lopez's latest post to mapnik-devel
21:18:09 * springmeyer is doing the same :)
21:18:39 <c_lopez> please correct me if I am wrong, what I understand is that the elements of the map are made up of symbolizers, so the same would apply to grids and coordinates
21:18:45 * springmeyer is thinking about responding to email now quickly to kick off discussion here
21:21:31 * springmeyer decides to do so... 
21:21:45 <artem> c_lopes: I think yes. in a way they can be implemented in terms of symbolisers
21:21:59 <artem> springmeyer: good move
21:22:23 <artem> c_lopez: just replying to some point in your email :
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21:25:41 <artem> c_lopez: [2] just to clarify, as far as I'm aware cairo doesn't provide functionality to port experimental pdf branch to cairo_renderer.   springmeyer, do you know?
21:26:28 <springmeyer> CAIRO api would be great to support drawing custom things like scale bar, legend, grids
21:26:43 <springmeyer> things also potentially desirable to be put on an AGG rendered map
21:27:00 <springmeyer> but right, would not (it seems) support proper PDF layers
21:27:28 <artem> springmeyer: I think it would be better to abstract drawing APIs to use any supported backends
21:27:44 <springmeyer> or, at least for that support would require patch to CAIRO pdf_surface
21:28:13 <springmeyer> artem: yes
21:29:01 <springmeyer> but can you elaborate on that?
21:30:05 <artem> We can implement line_to, move_to, close, curve
21:30:22 <artem> for both cairo and agg
21:30:30 <artem> or even svg;)
21:30:52 <c_lopez> artem: so that's why experimental_pdf was not directly implemented as an extension to cairo renderer? so a pdf_renderer would need to be set in a separate component to provide printing capabilities directly from mapnik? I understand that what Graham Jones was doing is to implement his own pdf renderer, but needed some way to change the resolution of the map.
21:31:56 <springmeyer> artem: brilliant
21:32:18 <artem> c_lopez: I think he hit cairo pdf limitations and solved this by implementing new renderer
21:33:41 <artem> The only problem is that it depends on wx libs which are a bit heavy weight for including into Mapnik I think
21:34:04 <springmeyer> artem: that would likely happen but actually in this case I think they did not look into cairo (based on fuzzy memory of chatting with rcoup in irc)
21:35:00 <artem> On  the other hand, because we have low level access to both geometries and styles in mapnik, we can output much better, customised, optimised svg, pdf etc
21:36:56 * springmeyer finally shoots off comments for c_lopez and group in email to devel/users
21:37:11 <artem> springmeyer: great stuff!
21:38:02 <springmeyer> c_lopez: I think you are understanding well, only confusion was around cairo vs agg. That cairo is special type of abstract API to multiple formats (aka surfaces)
21:38:15 <springmeyer> so cairo does both PNG/vector outputs
21:38:23 <c_lopez> oh, I had the idea that svg could be used to produce pdf, I guess I'm wrong.
21:38:36 <springmeyer> but in reality AGG is faster so most mapnik users only use Cairo when going for PDF/SVG formats
21:38:53 <springmeyer> c_lopez: svg is certainly able to be turned into PDF
21:39:41 <c_lopez> but that would be done by the client using the svg output, or by mapnik?
21:39:43 <springmeyer> they are very similiar. this is likely an oversimplification but I think of PDF as just a wrapper around SVG basis
21:40:31 <springmeyer> in mapnik you can currently choose whether to render a mapnik::Map with cairo to either svg or pdf
21:40:36 <springmeyer> is that what you are asking?
21:41:56 <c_lopez> in the trunk version?
21:41:59 <springmeyer> I should admit I am not an expert on SVG/PDF formats, really just a user. others will know more
21:42:07 <springmeyer> c_lopez: in all versions
21:42:14 <springmeyer> `OutputFormats
21:42:14 <nikq> http://trac.mapnik.org/wiki/OutputFormats
21:42:59 <springmeyer> also:
21:43:00 <springmeyer> `MapnikRenderers
21:43:01 <nikq> http://trac.mapnik.org/wiki/MapnikRenderers
21:43:59 <c_lopez> I hadn't seen that page before. then, experimental_pdf branch was developed to make customizations to the way the pdf was rendered?
21:44:23 <c_lopez> but the core functionality was already in mapnik
21:44:34 <springmeyer> c_lopez: pdf branch came before cairo_renderer implementation
21:44:51 <springmeyer> but yest, pdf branch is about more custom pdf rendering, exactly
21:45:22 <springmeyer> and as I group I think we originally hoped it could just be "ported" to cairo, but finding that is not 100% possible
21:45:58 <springmeyer> before cairo or experimental_pdf, Mapnik did not offer output other than PNG/JPEG
21:48:58 <c_lopez> oh, I was confused because I heard that Graham Jones' townguide used something called reportlabs for the sole purpose of transforming mapnik's output to pdf.
21:49:21 <c_lopez> and that maposmatic did the same with pango.
21:49:48 <springmeyer> c_lopez: interesting
21:49:48 <c_lopez> but then they just needed some customizations right?
21:50:35 <springmeyer> both of those ideas make sense, but I was unaware that those applications were doing anything further with PDF with software other than CAIRO
21:51:00 <springmeyer> reportlab is good python bindings to working with PDF in general
21:51:12 <springmeyer> pango makes working with text in cairo easier
21:51:30 <springmeyer> because text api in cairo is hard/low level
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21:52:00 <springmeyer> but Tom Hughes was smart enough to avoid needing pango for text in cairo_renderer
21:52:28 <c_lopez> I'm not completely sure about that, though. maybe I should ask him directly.
21:52:37 <springmeyer> althought I hear that pango may be able to do unicode text better than we are currently doing in cairo_renderer
21:52:40 <springmeyer> c_lopez: okay
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21:53:11 <springmeyer> c_lopez: I think these issues highlight why this project is both really important, and can be really useful
21:54:02 <springmeyer> e.g. to do good research on tools, and try to solve in Mapnik core hard issues, so that in appropriate cases... townguide, maposmatic, others do not need extra tools
21:55:56 <springmeyer> artem: ultimately however, I hope we can rely on artem's wisdom to avoid bloating :) - so smart additional stuff in Mapnik core and not too much
21:56:53 <artem> springmeyer: yes, agree we should be careful adding more (cross) dependencies
21:57:07 * springmeyer nods
21:59:00 <c_lopez> I don't know why I had the idea that the only support for printing was only provided by the experimental branch, even when Tom Hughes said he already included that functionality in cairo_renderer. I'm glad I found you both here  :)
22:00:18 <c_lopez> let me read your response in the mailing list
22:00:35 <artem> I like both : svg_renderer and 'drawing' interface ideas. simple drawing interface should be fairly easy to implement - wrapping agg/cairo methods. svg_renderer on the other hand can be a more creative project. I got to go now but I'll think about gsoc ideas, can we talk more soon? tomorrow?
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22:07:28 <c_lopez> sure, I hope to be here in the morning/afternoon, now that tomorrow is saturday
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22:14:22 <gibson.freenode.net> Topic for #mapnik is: Mapnik - C++/Python Toolkit | Mapnik 0.7.1 released - http://bit.ly/9Uvktr
22:14:22 <gibson.freenode.net> Users on #mapnik: mapniklog c_lopez racicot dkb tcarobruce Ldp jburgess cgs_bob_ Nicke jctull tomhughes sam` chad_burt rweait dodobas StormTide BillK mishok13 ser nikq gkmngrgn hobu lucasd jbronn cmarqu rulus mapnikbuild twain47 crust CIA-70 mikejs
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22:18:32 <springmeyer> hmm, irc probs big time
22:18:56 <springmeyer> had a netsplit there so my test previously did not show up
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22:20:53 <gibson.freenode.net> Topic for #mapnik is: Mapnik - C++/Python Toolkit | Mapnik 0.7.1 released - http://bit.ly/9Uvktr
22:20:53 <gibson.freenode.net> Users on #mapnik: mapniklog c_lopez racicot dkb tcarobruce Ldp jburgess cgs_bob_ Nicke jctull tomhughes sam` chad_burt rweait dodobas StormTide BillK mishok13 ser nikq gkmngrgn hobu lucasd jbronn cmarqu rulus mapnikbuild twain47 crust CIA-70 mikejs
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22:21:28 <gibson.freenode.net> Topic for #mapnik is: Mapnik - C++/Python Toolkit | Mapnik 0.7.1 released - http://bit.ly/9Uvktr
22:21:28 <gibson.freenode.net> Users on #mapnik: mapniklog c_lopez racicot dkb tcarobruce Ldp jburgess cgs_bob_ Nicke jctull tomhughes sam` chad_burt rweait dodobas StormTide BillK mishok13 ser nikq gkmngrgn hobu lucasd jbronn cmarqu rulus mapnikbuild twain47 crust CIA-70 mikejs
22:22:32 <c_lopez> springmeyer: I think I should take a closer look at the code for printing pdf in cairo_renderer.
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22:24:21 <c_lopez> springmeyer: I have to change some of the things I wrote in my proposal. I'm taking into account everything except the svg_renderer.
22:26:33 <springmeyer> test
22:26:33 <springmeyer> hmm, irc is borked right now. I can see c_lopez's comments in the logs (http://mapnik.dbsgeo.com/) but not my client!
22:26:33 * springmeyer heads out - will be back on with better internet hopefully later
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